Editor’s note: As part of Outpost’s 50th year, we are interviewing those who can speak into the history and trajectory of Outpost and our type of ministry. The following is the second of three conversations we have planned.
Dear friends,
Joe Dallas is a well-known author, speaker, and biblical counselor. His testimony of going from a gay-identified activist to a genuine follower of Jesus, experiencing tremendous healing and growth, is one that encourages me on my continued journey toward wholeness. Joe has ministered to men experiencing brokenness in their sexual identity for almost 40 years. His wife, Renee, also ministers to wives of men who are struggling with broken sexual identity. Joe and Renee, along with Outpost, are some of the founding members of Restored Hope Network. As someone who has ministered for many years—and has good insight into doing ministry like Outpost’s at this time—I wanted to hear Joe’s perspective on ministry, as well as his message to you who read Outpost News and pray for us regularly.
According to Joe,
“My involvement with this [type of ministry] was a God-ordained fluke. I never intended to. The one thing I had on my heart was to someday be able to walk with a guy who was going through what I had been going through. I repented of homosexuality back in 1984, began my own restoration process; it was very, very lonely for a long time. Nobody talked about this [issue] from [ministries like Outpost’s] perspective. You heard a lot in the church about [the] sin of homosexuality, certainly, but veritably nothing about the reality of believers who privately wrestled with homosexual desire. So, I did pray often in my loneliness, ‘Lord, please someday let me walk with someone.’ That’s all I prayed for.”
Joe was in the process of getting a Master’s in counseling. He was unable to get an internship, until he was informed about a church doing counseling for gay-identified men seeking to leave that life. Joe was against it at first, but eventually took the internship because there were no other options. He originally thought, “How many guys like that could there be?” But after hosting a conference on the subject of homosexuality and the Gospel,
“…my client load went from about 7 to 31 in three weeks. That’s when I realized, ‘Oh my gosh, there is a whole untapped potential population.’ Now, I thought my story was a rarity, like a unicorn, really. I thought, ‘How many guys could struggle with this?’ Oh I found out. That was the first time in my life I realized many people in the church are silently affected by this, one way or another…Of course, there are no flukes with God. But from Joe Dallas’ perspective, it was like God saying, ‘Surprise, surprise.’”
Joe expressed his gratitude for being able to minister for almost 40 years since then.
Since 1984—when Joe repented of homosexuality—there have been major cultural shifts that impact ministries like his and Outpost. Joe’s observation is with our culture shifting from non-affirming of LGBTQ+ topics to affirming of them,
“We who do this kind of work are now challenged not just to be ministers who shepherd people wanting to be discipled, but also apologists for what we do. We not only have to do what we do; we have to defend what we do.”
While Joe originally faced challenges with the American church assuming Christians didn’t struggle with LGBTQ+ issues, he also encountered intolerance from another corner.
“I noticed, for example, the advent of groups like Act Up and Queer Nation, who would invade conferences, invade churches, who would really operate with terrorist sort of tactics, to intimidate people from speaking on this issue.”
“What we’ve seen since then, I think, is a sort of a settling in of a fact that many forces are trying to eradicate, but nobody can. And that is that there will always be people who will reach a point where they realize, ‘Yes, I’m attracted to the same sex; no, I do not want this because no, I do not believe this is what my Creator intended.’ That’s irrefutable, that will never change. For that reason…we saw more and more efforts from the culture to do everything to, if they couldn’t obliterate us, at least try to discredit us.”
One shift in ministries like Outpost that Joe is thankful for is the focus on Scripture.
“There was a fair amount of psychological theory that also played into our ministries at that time. Largely because it was new, largely because there was so little out there for us.”
“The only problem I see with it, in retrospect, [is] it did seem to take the original vision we all had—to disciple people—out of the realm of discipleship only, and into some sort of more specialized counseling based on psychological theory.”
“What I have been really adamant about over the last at least couple of decades is: no one secular theory will fit all people, so don’t impose it on all people. The Scripture is what we go with. We consider a secular theory, it may or may not be applicable.”
“It’s a given now: if you do this ministry, you will get a lot of pushback. A lot of pushback. And you accept that the way a man accepts the potential of battle when he signs up for the draft. And that’s fine. But I think we have that more realistic approach to that.”
I asked Joe what he sees is the biggest challenge facing those like Outpost. His first thought was our own walks with Jesus.
“More than ever, we have to take our own walk with God seriously. Our own devotional life, our study of the Word, our prayer life, our own relationships within the Body, our own race we’ve gotta run. Because you’d have to be blind not to see that God is exposing everywhere levels of corruption in leadership. So badly, that we almost yawn when we hear, ‘Oh yeah, another pastor has been arrested, exposed, asked to step down.’ It goes on and on and on so that we’re almost numb to it, it is so commonplace. And in most cases, what is brought to light is something that’s been there for a long time.”
Joe also pointed out that ministries like Outpost will continue needing to define and defend ourselves, especially because
“the entire world, really, is being educated to believe that we are something we aren’t, and that we do something we don’t do.”
Joe told me how important it is as followers of Jesus to keep our focus on the Gospel.
“The Gospel is what made this all happen. So, let’s make sure that if people are coming against us, it’s the Gospel they’re coming against. Because, of course, we all know we can do wacky things if we are irresponsible, if our techniques are bizarre, if we’re not clear about what we offer. Then we suffer the consequences; that’s on us, that’s not persecution. So let’s make sure it’s real persecution if it happens. But I think that to defend what we do and to articulate when we do, to put it plainly and not use cliches to explain, in biblical terms what we do and why it is necessary, and why a whole portion of the population, which will always exist, deserves to be served. And of course, put the burden of proof on our accusers.”
Like in my previous interview with former Outpost director Dan P., Joe also emphasized sound doctrine.
“I think one of our challenges is going to be to not tailor our message to make people happy.”
Any of us, Joe said, who have grown up in broken homes can tend to want to keep love and respect from others coming if we get it.
“Our work is not just pastoral, it’s prophetic. We can’t lose that edge. God has given us a prophetic voice by which we say to the culture what wisdom said in Proverbs, ‘There is a better way, this is foolish, this is insane, stop;’ by which we speak to the church and say, ‘We have to take our sanctification seriously in all areas, and we will answer at the judgement seat of Christ for our we’ve stewarded our sexuality.’ So it’s a prophetic edge we must always have. And when you start trying to make people happy, one of the first things to go is your prophetic edge. It happens every time.”
Not everything is bad news, however. Joe was clear with me that he believes our best times are ahead of us.
“What’s dark gets darker and darker, what’s light gets lighter and lighter. And I think that our position as the light of the world, the Bride of Christ—I think the times will bring out the best in the church. I think we’ll see more the power of God. I think that in contrast to the madness of the world, more and more people are going to think again about the claims we’ve been making, because we’re going insane as a culture. We are just flat-out going nuts, the things we’re embracing.”
Although there have been many waves of this type of ministry, Joe said, God continues to use the work of those who’ve gone before us to shine the message of Gospel transformation into the world. And he is excited for what God has in store.
I concluded the interview asking Joe what message he has for pastors, family members of LGBTQ+-identified loved ones, overcomers, and the church at large. He had a lot to say that was both convicting and encouraging.
“For pastors, I would absolutely say: please know and exercise the power you have as the pastor.”
“Nobody can do what you do because you’re the shepherd. You have an entrée to that person’s soul that others of us don’t have just because God has ordained the pastoral relationship. And with that, you have the ability to do much of what gets abdicated to us [outside ministries]. Let us do [what is more in-line with our] specialty work. You can disciple somebody. If you know how to disciple somebody who is dealing with a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit, you largely know what to say to someone who’s dealing with homosexuality. You know how to disciple somebody with a wounded soul. If you know how to minister to someone who’s fallen in love with the wrong person, or whose behavior is getting out-of-line, you know how to do this work. There’s so much of what we do that I do believe pastors can do. So, my message to pastors would be: please don’t assume that you don’t largely have what it takes. Now, let us help you with more technical aspects of this, absolutely. We’re honored to. But please, take it on yourselves to shepherd, because you are the shepherd. And we are co-laborers with you, but we’re not the shepherd. And of course, please, like I said about our work, keep it sound doctrinally, always.”
For parents, Joe had these words of exhortation:
“Parents should remember that whatever they feel for their kids, God feels more. Whatever they hope for, that is God’s desire. And God is long at work after we have reached the end of all of our capacities. I’m exhibit A for that. My parents couldn’t do that thing about me making my decision that I was going to embrace this. But there were many people who prayed for me. And God still sees the prodigal. And I always encourage them [to] pray three things, because if you pray these three things, you’re praying in God’s will: ‘God, soften my loved one’s heart towards you. Pierce through the hardness and soften them.’ ‘God, make my loved one uncomfortable with what is outside Your will, and thereby not in his[/her] best interest.’ And, ‘God, give my loved one the faith to be confident that if he or she turns from that, You will catch them, You will give them what they need.’ I think that’s critical.”
For those seeking wholeness, Joe gave a clear reminder of the Gospel:
“Certainly to strugglers, I would say: be ever-vigilant, be ever-faithful, but not overfocused. I think it was Jesse Owens who said that the most heroic acts we do are never seen. It’s the quiet decisions we make on a day-to-day basis: ‘I won’t take a second look. I won’t indulge in a private pleasure. I won’t refuse to forgive.’ Those are the day-to-day-to-day-to-day, sometimes mundane, decisions we make—but that’s what it’s all about. You want to be ever-faithful about that. Be ever-faithful about the race. You didn’t get into this bargaining with God to give you an easier life. You got into this out of obedience. And let’s not forget, you know, we didn’t do God a great favor when we said, ‘Okay Lord, I will walk in the right way.’ Like all of heaven [is saying], ‘Lucky us, what would we do without you?’ We are sinners saved by grace. Our names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. There should be gratitude in that—humble gratitude—that doesn’t get too whiny about the fact that life gets hard. So, we have to be ever-faithful, but not overfocused.I think sometimes, we as a group…get way too serious. And we don’t have as much fun as we should be having. I really encourage strugglers: your life largely has gray in it because you’re working on repentance, you’re reading the books, you’re doing the seminars, you’re doing the counseling, you’re doing the groups. Well, that’s good. Put some color in the gray. What do you like to do? Find what’s fun and generate some laughter in your life things you can legitimately look forward to.”
To the church at large, Joe’s message was one of contrasting the world’s offer of “love” and “freedom” with what God truly offers through the Body of Christ.
“To the church at large, I want to talk about something that occurred to me last year. When someone in the church is realizing, ‘I’m attracted to the same sex, I don’t know who to talk to, I don’t know what to do, I don’t know how safe I am here’—outside the walls of the church, there are all these voices saying, ‘Jump. Jump out the window, we’ll catch you, we got a trampoline here. We have gay-affirming churches, we have gay-affirming therapists. We have clubs for you, we have plans for you, we have a whole community waiting for you. With us, you will not be ignored. Don’t stay there in all that oppression; jump. We’ll catch you.’ And they’re hearing that. We’re losing so many people, I daresay every day. The church has a leak in it, a lot of people are hearing those voices say, ‘Jump.’ Now, where’s our trampoline? Being the Body of Christ—not just on this issue, you know, but on the whole issue of being stewards of our sexuality, our relations, the difficulties so many believers have with intimacy—where is the safety for someone to say, ‘I’m two steps away from divorcing my wife,’ or, ‘I’m about to have an affair,’ or, ‘I’m hooked on porn.’ You know, whatever [struggle]. Where’s the place where we are saying within the church, ‘We’re followers of Jesus Christ, we’re members of the Body; we’re here for you. Without judgement, but with standards and with aspirations, we want to align with you. Please align with us, and we’ll struggle together and strive together.’ That’s what people are so needing; our community needs to have larger doses of the authenticity and that sort-of primitive Christianity to it that says, ‘Hey, I’m in the race until Christ comes, though none go with me. And I hope you’re with me in that.’ And I think with that sort-of shoulder-to-shoulder approach, we’ll be a stronger church.”
We are so grateful for Joe and many others whom God continues to use to declare the truth of Gospel transformation to a world drowning in confusion and pain. As we look ahead to our 50th anniversary celebration this October, we continue to thank God for our ability to minister to those seeking wholeness in their sexual identity. We also thank the many people who pray for us and partner with us financially; your partnership impacts lives in so many ways. We invite you to celebrate 50 years of ministry with us. To God be all praise, glory, and honor! Amen.
Check here for details on upcoming events. We would love to celebrate with you!
